Great Read For Those Impatient Knicks Fans Hating on Frank Ntilikina -Like always....love em...hate..em..trade em... (2024)

2/10/2018 5:17 PMLAST EDITED: 2/10/2018 5:20 PM

newyorknewyork wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Frank Ntilikina - The Steady Pro Not as well-known among the casual fan as the college guards, Ntilikina is a high-floor prospect who is destined for, at the very least, a long career as a versatile, two-way player with a high IQ and professional approach to the game. With the physical profile of an NBA two guard (6'6 with a 7-foot wingspan and a projectable frame) and a high motor, Ntilikina projects as a three-position defender who can make a spot up three, play off of closeouts, execute the simple pass while on or off the ball, and use his long strides to slither his way to the rim out of pick and roll. A high character young man by way of Belgium (the son of Rwandan refugees), Ntilikina should be viewed as more of a slow and steady' prospect who isn't likely to provide much wow factor out of the gates like a De'Aaron Fox or Dennis Smith might. While we weren't able to see his full arsenal of skills during his season with Strasbourg, where he played mostly off the ball, Ntilikina showed what he can do on the ball with a huge 2016 U18 European Championships, yet he's still a couple years from having a big offensive impact at the NBA level. U18 European Championship

Breakdown: Ntilikina plays somewhat of a calculated game, and he's not all that explosive or shifty with the ball, making it essential that he's brought along slowly on the offensive end, being used as a defender/secondary ball handler in his NBA minutes, while playing strictly on the ball in the D-League. Ntilikina is eventually going to be rock solid in almost any situation, because he's a willing defender with length, possesses a strong feel for the game, has pro experience at the ripe age of 18, and has turned himself into a fairly reliable shooter with time and space. Where Ntilikina may falter is if he's thrust into a huge role as a lead guard early on in his career. Slipping' a bit in the draft may end up benefitting Ntilikina, as he'll likely end up on a more competitive team where he can play a role, as his point guard polish and shot creation continue to develop. Landing in Charlotte and learning from Kemba Walker, fellow Frenchmen Nicolas Batum and well-respected head coach Steve Clifford could provide Ntilikina with the basis he needs, especially considering the Hornets strong relationship with its D-League team in Greensboro. Miami would also be a great place for Ntilikina to grow as his work ethic and approach would be welcomed by Pat Riley and Erik Spoelstra, who run arguably the most regimented organization in the NBA. Playing for one of the top coaches in the NBA and learning from a fellow international guard like Goran Dragic could be a perfect recipe for Ntilikina. Milwaukee is reportedly very high on him as well, but would likely have to move up. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/breaking-down-the-2017-nba-draft-39-s-loaded-guard-crop-6063/ ©DraftExpress

That scouting report has been pretty damn accurate to this point. Don't think you can look at Frank as just a PG prospect. He is a prospect that can offer tons of flexibility to coaches with lineups. And could potentially do anything on the court contributing in a variety of ways. The level at which he will be able to do these things is the question though. But IMO we should continue to build the team up with they vision. Collecting as many players a possible that offer possible all around skills and flexibility/versatility. It may take a few seasons to build up a strong enough foundation. If done right the payoff would be tremendous though.

It's easy to hate on a 19 yr old with Franks type of game though so its not really worth arguing about. If he is traded and does well for another team a few yrs later. Fans will just complain about Knicks lack of development ability. If he ends up being a good player for the Knicks then fans will get to enjoy him producing for the Knicks while claiming they always were "rooting" for him. If he flops then fans can brag about being right. There is little downs side in knocking him. You will never hear yea I was impatient though. Or I had an agenda since he isn't the player I preferred. So I found any opportunity I could to knock him.

Sorry you had to be drafted by Phil Jackson Frank. Keep you head up and keep working. On you to turn the jeers into cheers.

Then wouldn't it follow we should of traded KP if this is a 4, 5 year rebuild. Porzingis could leave waiting for Frank to make his first pass when he reaches the 3 point line instead of the second he steps over half court. I would just like to see a clear coherent vision. Is this is a true rebuild why does Jarrett Jack play 30 minutes, why trade Willy, I don't understand the plan and quite frankly a guy who worked for the Magic and Kings, and a holdover from Isiah Thomas era doesn't inspire confidence.

2/10/2018 6:38 PMLAST EDITED: 2/10/2018 6:41 PM

Jmpasq wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Frank Ntilikina - The Steady Pro Not as well-known among the casual fan as the college guards, Ntilikina is a high-floor prospect who is destined for, at the very least, a long career as a versatile, two-way player with a high IQ and professional approach to the game. With the physical profile of an NBA two guard (6'6 with a 7-foot wingspan and a projectable frame) and a high motor, Ntilikina projects as a three-position defender who can make a spot up three, play off of closeouts, execute the simple pass while on or off the ball, and use his long strides to slither his way to the rim out of pick and roll. A high character young man by way of Belgium (the son of Rwandan refugees), Ntilikina should be viewed as more of a slow and steady' prospect who isn't likely to provide much wow factor out of the gates like a De'Aaron Fox or Dennis Smith might. While we weren't able to see his full arsenal of skills during his season with Strasbourg, where he played mostly off the ball, Ntilikina showed what he can do on the ball with a huge 2016 U18 European Championships, yet he's still a couple years from having a big offensive impact at the NBA level. U18 European Championship

Breakdown: Ntilikina plays somewhat of a calculated game, and he's not all that explosive or shifty with the ball, making it essential that he's brought along slowly on the offensive end, being used as a defender/secondary ball handler in his NBA minutes, while playing strictly on the ball in the D-League. Ntilikina is eventually going to be rock solid in almost any situation, because he's a willing defender with length, possesses a strong feel for the game, has pro experience at the ripe age of 18, and has turned himself into a fairly reliable shooter with time and space. Where Ntilikina may falter is if he's thrust into a huge role as a lead guard early on in his career. Slipping' a bit in the draft may end up benefitting Ntilikina, as he'll likely end up on a more competitive team where he can play a role, as his point guard polish and shot creation continue to develop. Landing in Charlotte and learning from Kemba Walker, fellow Frenchmen Nicolas Batum and well-respected head coach Steve Clifford could provide Ntilikina with the basis he needs, especially considering the Hornets strong relationship with its D-League team in Greensboro. Miami would also be a great place for Ntilikina to grow as his work ethic and approach would be welcomed by Pat Riley and Erik Spoelstra, who run arguably the most regimented organization in the NBA. Playing for one of the top coaches in the NBA and learning from a fellow international guard like Goran Dragic could be a perfect recipe for Ntilikina. Milwaukee is reportedly very high on him as well, but would likely have to move up. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/breaking-down-the-2017-nba-draft-39-s-loaded-guard-crop-6063/ ©DraftExpress

That scouting report has been pretty damn accurate to this point. Don't think you can look at Frank as just a PG prospect. He is a prospect that can offer tons of flexibility to coaches with lineups. And could potentially do anything on the court contributing in a variety of ways. The level at which he will be able to do these things is the question though. But IMO we should continue to build the team up with they vision. Collecting as many players a possible that offer possible all around skills and flexibility/versatility. It may take a few seasons to build up a strong enough foundation. If done right the payoff would be tremendous though.

It's easy to hate on a 19 yr old with Franks type of game though so its not really worth arguing about. If he is traded and does well for another team a few yrs later. Fans will just complain about Knicks lack of development ability. If he ends up being a good player for the Knicks then fans will get to enjoy him producing for the Knicks while claiming they always were "rooting" for him. If he flops then fans can brag about being right. There is little downs side in knocking him. You will never hear yea I was impatient though. Or I had an agenda since he isn't the player I preferred. So I found any opportunity I could to knock him.

Sorry you had to be drafted by Phil Jackson Frank. Keep you head up and keep working. On you to turn the jeers into cheers.

Then wouldn't it follow we should of traded KP if this is a 4, 5 year rebuild. Porzingis could leave waiting for Frank to make his first pass when he reaches the 3 point line instead of the second he steps over half court. I would just like to see a clear coherent vision. Is this is a true rebuild why does Jarrett Jack play 30 minutes, why trade Willy, I don't understand the plan and quite frankly a guy who worked for the Magic and Kings, and a holdover from Isiah Thomas era doesn't inspire confidence.

The vision has not changed from Perry's first day...I hear all this talk about Willy...he did good last year but if he could not beat out KO and Kanter that is on him.....as far as trading him...IMO the opinion Perry got the best deal out of the crap being offered....think of this trade deadline and how many first round picks were traded...Mirotic to NO first....Bledsoe...to MIL for a 1st and 2nd.....Nance and Clarkson...clev heavily protected first.....Shezz.....teams were heavily protecting second rounders....Marcus Smart could not even garner a first..

Maybe the fans changed the vision in their heads...Perry and Steve did not say...screw it lets trade our 1st to starphu*ck again..KP got hot early...we were unbeatable at home and we were playing 4.5 out of every 5 games at home...and then we came back to Earth...KP offensive arsenal regressed...and we did not have the athletes that we needed to match up...we hit road shakey as hell

.I am not saying I completely sold yet....but Perry given the cards that have been dealt him has made solid...prudent moves....Jack....zkanter and Chi pick....Beasley....Willy for two 2nd rounders...if anything Perry's patience put us in the position to get Mudiay thru McD....yeah we have 4 guards....but when you are trying to accumulate talent you roll with what you can get because you are not trying to overpay unless you truly value the piece you are after as transformative for your team....

2/10/2018 7:21 PM

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:G-League, would have been a good place for a rookie to work on his game this season, who has played like second round talent to this point.

I've asked this several time in other threads but no one has yet to respond.

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

GustavBahler, you've mentioned that Frank should go to the GLeague over and over. What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Frank will be getting time playing over the summer where no doubt he will be in a position to get the same type of GLeague experience but he won't be able to get back his NBA time with team.

Can anyone put any more teeth into the line "Send Frank to the Gleague" or is that it? Seems fairly simplistic to me.

I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles and is scrutinized so that he can experience nba coaching, playing experience. travel etc. Sometimes it is better to be the best in the 'b' group then the worst in the 'a' group. A lot of very good players have come from the d league. A lot of guys that are very good were developed there despite being drafted Capella, Gobert, Hardaway jr., D.Green etc. I think you need to get past defending Frank and look at what is best for his development. Staying with the Knicks might be the best thing but it isn't the only option. Barring injuries, Frank should have a 15-17 year career. If the Knick organization sees Westchester as a good developmental program then they should consider it for Frank. If the thought is that he is better off being with the NBA team then don't send him down. I thought Perry did a great job bringing in Jack to mentor Frank. He has been described by some in the media as the perfect vet mentor/locker room guy. Whatever decision is made it should be based on development and not on not on not embarrassing the franchise or embarrassing Frank. My guess is that the coaching staff knows Frank well enough to know if sending him down for development devastates him and harms his growth.

Both of your points highlighted are off, utterly and completely. Literally I am asking about the GLeague and what you know about it. "I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles". Why would you try to put words to me?

Reread my post very closely. I never defend Frank, and in fact I am looking at what is best for his development: I AM LITERALLY ASKING ABOUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I want you and Gustav to tell me what you know about the GLeague and how it is better, compare and contrast, not just throw **** against the wall and see if it sticks.

Please address some of the meat of my post:

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Also, if you ask Frank to go to the GLeague and just take a me-first attitude on the offensive end of things, does that wreck the whole chemistry of their development system of the other guys on the team? Does it take away from the whole structure of team ball?

This is not a black and white thing. Send Frank, magic happens, Frank is suddenly better and fixed.

Nutrition? We talking bout' Nutrition??? Does MSG have better smoothies? Is that it?

Cmon Mart-in, you can do better than that.

You've just made an argument never to send anyone to the G-League.

I will give you one good reason why. Frank has a giant hole in his game, namely his playing scared most of the time.

How many times does Frank get to the line? How many charges has he taken this season? Dont want your answer to be another variation of "But he's just a baby!"

Whatever you believe Frank's ceiling is, even if its accurate,he's played like second round talent at best this season. What is often done with second round talent? They get sent to the G-League so they can work on their game.

If Frank is too underdeveloped to play NBA style ball, then he needs to go somewhere to work on that. I just thought of a place!!

You treat this kid like he is the annointed one. Its getting old.

2/10/2018 7:28 PM

2/10/2018 7:47 PM

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:People need to be patient- Hopefully we end up with a top 5 pick this year, then another one next year, by which point KP will hopefully be back cooking, Frank will have had 2 yrs development, and we'll have a huge chunk of cap space as Noah's salary is off the books. We could come out of KPs injury pretty well.

What gives you the impression they would pick the right guy

This is what you offer up on our site? Dude, it's tiring

well base on the knicks draft history(which we are all aware of) it's just a stark reminder that we can't put all of our eggs in that basket.

2/10/2018 9:43 PM

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:G-League, would have been a good place for a rookie to work on his game this season, who has played like second round talent to this point.

I've asked this several time in other threads but no one has yet to respond.

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

GustavBahler, you've mentioned that Frank should go to the GLeague over and over. What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Frank will be getting time playing over the summer where no doubt he will be in a position to get the same type of GLeague experience but he won't be able to get back his NBA time with team.

Can anyone put any more teeth into the line "Send Frank to the Gleague" or is that it? Seems fairly simplistic to me.

I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles and is scrutinized so that he can experience nba coaching, playing experience. travel etc. Sometimes it is better to be the best in the 'b' group then the worst in the 'a' group. A lot of very good players have come from the d league. A lot of guys that are very good were developed there despite being drafted Capella, Gobert, Hardaway jr., D.Green etc. I think you need to get past defending Frank and look at what is best for his development. Staying with the Knicks might be the best thing but it isn't the only option. Barring injuries, Frank should have a 15-17 year career. If the Knick organization sees Westchester as a good developmental program then they should consider it for Frank. If the thought is that he is better off being with the NBA team then don't send him down. I thought Perry did a great job bringing in Jack to mentor Frank. He has been described by some in the media as the perfect vet mentor/locker room guy. Whatever decision is made it should be based on development and not on not on not embarrassing the franchise or embarrassing Frank. My guess is that the coaching staff knows Frank well enough to know if sending him down for development devastates him and harms his growth.

Both of your points highlighted are off, utterly and completely. Literally I am asking about the GLeague and what you know about it. "I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles". Why would you try to put words to me?

Reread my post very closely. I never defend Frank, and in fact I am looking at what is best for his development: I AM LITERALLY ASKING ABOUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I want you and Gustav to tell me what you know about the GLeague and how it is better, compare and contrast, not just throw **** against the wall and see if it sticks.

Please address some of the meat of my post:

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Also, if you ask Frank to go to the GLeague and just take a me-first attitude on the offensive end of things, does that wreck the whole chemistry of their development system of the other guys on the team? Does it take away from the whole structure of team ball?

This is not a black and white thing. Send Frank, magic happens, Frank is suddenly better and fixed.

What you are saying is a double edged sword. Cutting to the chase, you don't know that staying with the team is the best thing for his development and all the same questions that probably no-one has answers to could be posed to you in the same manner.

2/10/2018 9:46 PM

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:G-League, would have been a good place for a rookie to work on his game this season, who has played like second round talent to this point.

I've asked this several time in other threads but no one has yet to respond.

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

GustavBahler, you've mentioned that Frank should go to the GLeague over and over. What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Frank will be getting time playing over the summer where no doubt he will be in a position to get the same type of GLeague experience but he won't be able to get back his NBA time with team.

Can anyone put any more teeth into the line "Send Frank to the Gleague" or is that it? Seems fairly simplistic to me.

I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles and is scrutinized so that he can experience nba coaching, playing experience. travel etc. Sometimes it is better to be the best in the 'b' group then the worst in the 'a' group. A lot of very good players have come from the d league. A lot of guys that are very good were developed there despite being drafted Capella, Gobert, Hardaway jr., D.Green etc. I think you need to get past defending Frank and look at what is best for his development. Staying with the Knicks might be the best thing but it isn't the only option. Barring injuries, Frank should have a 15-17 year career. If the Knick organization sees Westchester as a good developmental program then they should consider it for Frank. If the thought is that he is better off being with the NBA team then don't send him down. I thought Perry did a great job bringing in Jack to mentor Frank. He has been described by some in the media as the perfect vet mentor/locker room guy. Whatever decision is made it should be based on development and not on not on not embarrassing the franchise or embarrassing Frank. My guess is that the coaching staff knows Frank well enough to know if sending him down for development devastates him and harms his growth.

Both of your points highlighted are off, utterly and completely. Literally I am asking about the GLeague and what you know about it. "I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles". Why would you try to put words to me?

Reread my post very closely. I never defend Frank, and in fact I am looking at what is best for his development: I AM LITERALLY ASKING ABOUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I want you and Gustav to tell me what you know about the GLeague and how it is better, compare and contrast, not just throw **** against the wall and see if it sticks.

Please address some of the meat of my post:

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Also, if you ask Frank to go to the GLeague and just take a me-first attitude on the offensive end of things, does that wreck the whole chemistry of their development system of the other guys on the team? Does it take away from the whole structure of team ball?

This is not a black and white thing. Send Frank, magic happens, Frank is suddenly better and fixed.

Nutrition? We talking bout' Nutrition??? Does MSG have better smoothies? Is that it?

Cmon Mart-in, you can do better than that.

You've just made an argument never to send anyone to the G-League.

I will give you one good reason why. Frank has a giant hole in his game, namely his playing scared most of the time.

How many times does Frank get to the line? How many charges has he taken this season? Dont want your answer to be another variation of "But he's just a baby!"

Whatever you believe Frank's ceiling is, even if its accurate,he's played like second round talent at best this season. What is often done with second round talent? They get sent to the G-League so they can work on their game.

If Frank is too underdeveloped to play NBA style ball, then he needs to go somewhere to work on that. I just thought of a place!!

You treat this kid like he is the annointed one. Its getting old.

So mostly you have offered nothing but surface level guesses at what the GLeague can offer.

And to the bold: You know what happens to guys who are getting minutes in the NBA, they stay and get experience in the NBA.

And by nutrition I do mean diet, etc. This is EXTREMELY important to athletes.

Keep throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks and you'll get what you get. It's very thin.

Do you think DSJr should be sent to the GLeague? He is clueless at defense. Maybe he could work on his game there? Why do you think Dallas is keeping him on the NBA team?

2/10/2018 9:49 PM

nykshaknbake wrote:
What you are saying is a double edged sword. Cutting to the chase, you don't know that staying with the team is the best thing for his development and all the same questions that probably no-one has answers to could be posed to you in the same manner.

You are correct, I don't know what's going on but I can make a guess. The times guys go to the GLeague is (mostly) when minutes can't be had at the NBA level. And it's not all the time that guys go down even though they are NOT getting minutes.

So that means to me that there are many reasons why guys just don't go down to the GLeague.

The suggestion has been made, just send Frank to the GLeague. It's thin

2/10/2018 10:08 PM

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:G-League, would have been a good place for a rookie to work on his game this season, who has played like second round talent to this point.

I've asked this several time in other threads but no one has yet to respond.

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

GustavBahler, you've mentioned that Frank should go to the GLeague over and over. What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Frank will be getting time playing over the summer where no doubt he will be in a position to get the same type of GLeague experience but he won't be able to get back his NBA time with team.

Can anyone put any more teeth into the line "Send Frank to the Gleague" or is that it? Seems fairly simplistic to me.

I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles and is scrutinized so that he can experience nba coaching, playing experience. travel etc. Sometimes it is better to be the best in the 'b' group then the worst in the 'a' group. A lot of very good players have come from the d league. A lot of guys that are very good were developed there despite being drafted Capella, Gobert, Hardaway jr., D.Green etc. I think you need to get past defending Frank and look at what is best for his development. Staying with the Knicks might be the best thing but it isn't the only option. Barring injuries, Frank should have a 15-17 year career. If the Knick organization sees Westchester as a good developmental program then they should consider it for Frank. If the thought is that he is better off being with the NBA team then don't send him down. I thought Perry did a great job bringing in Jack to mentor Frank. He has been described by some in the media as the perfect vet mentor/locker room guy. Whatever decision is made it should be based on development and not on not on not embarrassing the franchise or embarrassing Frank. My guess is that the coaching staff knows Frank well enough to know if sending him down for development devastates him and harms his growth.

Both of your points highlighted are off, utterly and completely. Literally I am asking about the GLeague and what you know about it. "I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles". Why would you try to put words to me?

Reread my post very closely. I never defend Frank, and in fact I am looking at what is best for his development: I AM LITERALLY ASKING ABOUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I want you and Gustav to tell me what you know about the GLeague and how it is better, compare and contrast, not just throw **** against the wall and see if it sticks.

Please address some of the meat of my post:

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Also, if you ask Frank to go to the GLeague and just take a me-first attitude on the offensive end of things, does that wreck the whole chemistry of their development system of the other guys on the team? Does it take away from the whole structure of team ball?

This is not a black and white thing. Send Frank, magic happens, Frank is suddenly better and fixed.

Nutrition? We talking bout' Nutrition??? Does MSG have better smoothies? Is that it?

Cmon Mart-in, you can do better than that.

You've just made an argument never to send anyone to the G-League.

I will give you one good reason why. Frank has a giant hole in his game, namely his playing scared most of the time.

How many times does Frank get to the line? How many charges has he taken this season? Dont want your answer to be another variation of "But he's just a baby!"

Whatever you believe Frank's ceiling is, even if its accurate,he's played like second round talent at best this season. What is often done with second round talent? They get sent to the G-League so they can work on their game.

If Frank is too underdeveloped to play NBA style ball, then he needs to go somewhere to work on that. I just thought of a place!!

You treat this kid like he is the annointed one. Its getting old.

So mostly you have offered nothing but surface level guesses at what the GLeague can offer.

And to the bold: You know what happens to guys who are getting minutes in the NBA, they stay and get experience in the NBA.

And by nutrition I do mean diet, etc. This is EXTREMELY important to athletes.

Keep throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks and you'll get what you get. It's very thin.

Do you think DSJr should be sent to the GLeague? He is clueless at defense. Maybe he could work on his game there? Why do you think Dallas is keeping him on the NBA team?

I don't think any of these guys should be in the G League and six of them were drafted after Frank. You don't defend Frank?
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/midseason-nba-rookie-of-the-year-rankings-simmons-holds-slim-lead/

2/11/2018 8:50 AM

I’m actually starting to warm up to Frank bc I recently learned that he played mostly off the ball in Europe. This makes sense know about him telegraphing his passes and some of his robotic movements. The kid is learning to play point guard. The games I’ve watched him playing off the ball this season he’s looked more confident. He’s able to focus on his shot & defense. Hence the Mudiay acquisition can really help Frank flourish as a secondary ball handler.

Hardaway Jr is going back to his inconsistent self which is super frustrating considering his contract. My Frank frustration has now turned to Timmy. I know he was coming off an injury, but then don’t play and make it worse if you’re really hurting.

2/11/2018 10:34 AM

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:People need to be patient- Hopefully we end up with a top 5 pick this year, then another one next year, by which point KP will hopefully be back cooking, Frank will have had 2 yrs development, and we'll have a huge chunk of cap space as Noah's salary is off the books. We could come out of KPs injury pretty well.

What gives you the impression they would pick the right guy

This is what you offer up on our site? Dude, it's tiring

well base on the knicks draft history(which we are all aware of) it's just a stark reminder that we can't put all of our eggs in that basket.

Need eggs.

2/11/2018 10:45 AM

It’s not about being impatient.

It’s the lack of athleticism. He’s 6’5 with a 7’ wingspan and he can’t get to the basket, never does anything that makes you get excited on the offensive end. It’s just troubling, because the Knicks can’t afford to miss. Because right now we have no future again in midst of rebuilding for 15 years.

KP is a question mark right now. He’s going to be healthy right around the time he’s a free agent. THJR somehow forgets how to shoot for 6-8 games at a time.

We are behind the Sixers, Bulls, Celtics right now long term, so fans just want a glimpse of what might be possible. And watching Frank cross half court pick up his dribble, pass immediately and never look to attack has to make you sick when you see Mitchell and Smith. Obviously, it takes time but the occasional play is all we are looking for.

2/11/2018 10:46 AM

frank is confused asking us what to do!

History of progress, practicing his “Gleague Shuffle”

Fearful?

Hey Frank, your going to the Gleague!

2/11/2018 10:49 AM

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:G-League, would have been a good place for a rookie to work on his game this season, who has played like second round talent to this point.

I've asked this several time in other threads but no one has yet to respond.

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

GustavBahler, you've mentioned that Frank should go to the GLeague over and over. What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Frank will be getting time playing over the summer where no doubt he will be in a position to get the same type of GLeague experience but he won't be able to get back his NBA time with team.

Can anyone put any more teeth into the line "Send Frank to the Gleague" or is that it? Seems fairly simplistic to me.

I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles and is scrutinized so that he can experience nba coaching, playing experience. travel etc. Sometimes it is better to be the best in the 'b' group then the worst in the 'a' group. A lot of very good players have come from the d league. A lot of guys that are very good were developed there despite being drafted Capella, Gobert, Hardaway jr., D.Green etc. I think you need to get past defending Frank and look at what is best for his development. Staying with the Knicks might be the best thing but it isn't the only option. Barring injuries, Frank should have a 15-17 year career. If the Knick organization sees Westchester as a good developmental program then they should consider it for Frank. If the thought is that he is better off being with the NBA team then don't send him down. I thought Perry did a great job bringing in Jack to mentor Frank. He has been described by some in the media as the perfect vet mentor/locker room guy. Whatever decision is made it should be based on development and not on not on not embarrassing the franchise or embarrassing Frank. My guess is that the coaching staff knows Frank well enough to know if sending him down for development devastates him and harms his growth.

Both of your points highlighted are off, utterly and completely. Literally I am asking about the GLeague and what you know about it. "I think you are making the point that Frank would be better in the nba no matter how much he struggles". Why would you try to put words to me?

Reread my post very closely. I never defend Frank, and in fact I am looking at what is best for his development: I AM LITERALLY ASKING ABOUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I want you and Gustav to tell me what you know about the GLeague and how it is better, compare and contrast, not just throw **** against the wall and see if it sticks.

Please address some of the meat of my post:

Who here has any understanding of the difference between growth environment between the NBA and the GLeague? Guys can get playing time in the GLeague, if that is the ONLY aspect of what is needed, but what about everything else that is provided at the NBA level that is not within the G-League: more access to coaches, nutrition, weight training, going up again other NBA players, etc.

What is your experience with the GLeague and what it has to offer over training on an NBA team? What other players can we point to that couldn't get time on an NBA that played in GLeague and developed? What is your plan? Only home games, going back and forth with NBA? A few weeks? The rest of the season? Travel with GLeague team?

What are the positives and negatives in going to the GLeague? What are the positives and negatives in staying on the NBA team with their coaches?

Also, if you ask Frank to go to the GLeague and just take a me-first attitude on the offensive end of things, does that wreck the whole chemistry of their development system of the other guys on the team? Does it take away from the whole structure of team ball?

This is not a black and white thing. Send Frank, magic happens, Frank is suddenly better and fixed.

Nutrition? We talking bout' Nutrition??? Does MSG have better smoothies? Is that it?

Cmon Mart-in, you can do better than that.

You've just made an argument never to send anyone to the G-League.

I will give you one good reason why. Frank has a giant hole in his game, namely his playing scared most of the time.

How many times does Frank get to the line? How many charges has he taken this season? Dont want your answer to be another variation of "But he's just a baby!"

Whatever you believe Frank's ceiling is, even if its accurate,he's played like second round talent at best this season. What is often done with second round talent? They get sent to the G-League so they can work on their game.

If Frank is too underdeveloped to play NBA style ball, then he needs to go somewhere to work on that. I just thought of a place!!

You treat this kid like he is the annointed one. Its getting old.

So mostly you have offered nothing but surface level guesses at what the GLeague can offer.

And to the bold: You know what happens to guys who are getting minutes in the NBA, they stay and get experience in the NBA.

And by nutrition I do mean diet, etc. This is EXTREMELY important to athletes.

Keep throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks and you'll get what you get. It's very thin.

Do you think DSJr should be sent to the GLeague? He is clueless at defense. Maybe he could work on his game there? Why do you think Dallas is keeping him on the NBA team?

I have no clue if G-league would be more beneficial for Frank's development then playing in the NBA. I don't think any of us really know. I can understand the reasoning though in terms of using G-league as a platform for Frank to hold a high usage with the plan on working steadily on his weaknesses during live action games. Without worrying about effecting the wins and loses of the big club. But again don't know if its better for his development over the practices and mins he gets vs NBA comp under NBA head coach watch. As well as the access to veteran NBA players.

2/11/2018 10:54 AM

TLover wrote:I’m actually starting to warm up to Frank bc I recently learned that he played mostly off the ball in Europe. This makes sense know about him telegraphing his passes and some of his robotic movements. The kid is learning to play point guard. The games I’ve watched him playing off the ball this season he’s looked more confident. He’s able to focus on his shot & defense. Hence the Mudiay acquisition can really help Frank flourish as a secondary ball handler.

Hardaway Jr is going back to his inconsistent self which is super frustrating considering his contract. My Frank frustration has now turned to Timmy. I know he was coming off an injury, but then don’t play and make it worse if you’re really hurting.

Jeff seems to have hinted at Frank's conditioning not being NBA level at the moment. Frank will have to fix that first and foremost(his stamina and body)

2/11/2018 2:30 PM

newyorknewyork wrote:I have no clue if G-league would be more beneficial for Frank's development then playing in the NBA. I don't think any of us really know. I can understand the reasoning though in terms of using G-league as a platform for Frank to hold a high usage with the plan on working steadily on his weaknesses during live action games. Without worrying about effecting the wins and loses of the big club. But again don't know if its better for his development over the practices and mins he gets vs NBA comp under NBA head coach watch. As well as the access to veteran NBA players.

That's a resonance response.

The Knicks HAVE used the GLeauge for their roster. Baker, Dotson had gone down repeatedly. For home games when the team wasn't practicing. And when they couldn't get NBA minutes and/or were rehabbing.

So, send him down for just home games or for weeks or months at a time. Do players improve in just a couple sporadic games (especially in this particular instance; getting reps to keep the legs and shot going, yes)? Probably not, so to be effective, you'll need weeks or months of continual usage (something that is readily had during the summer). If you send him down for weeks of games, I'd guess that it would include time away from NBA team, ie practices, workout routines, time with the vets watching over, in-game NBA time. Does the GLeague team practices as much as their NBA counterparts? Doubt it but I don't know. Do they have access to trainers, physicians, assistants as much as their counterparts? Doubt it but I don't know. I'd guess some but not all of the GLeague guys have side jobs and what not, so time outside of games would be not as worthwhile as with the NBA.

Knicks - and plenty of other teams around the league that have rookies or second year players that have deficient games - have made a conscious decision to send some guys and to not send others. I don't think it's a case of "well, lets just send and see what happens". It's a very conscious, well thought out thing. Lots of positives, lots of negatives, lots of consideration.

2/11/2018 2:33 PM

newyorknewyork wrote:

TLover wrote:I’m actually starting to warm up to Frank bc I recently learned that he played mostly off the ball in Europe. This makes sense know about him telegraphing his passes and some of his robotic movements. The kid is learning to play point guard. The games I’ve watched him playing off the ball this season he’s looked more confident. He’s able to focus on his shot & defense. Hence the Mudiay acquisition can really help Frank flourish as a secondary ball handler.

Hardaway Jr is going back to his inconsistent self which is super frustrating considering his contract. My Frank frustration has now turned to Timmy. I know he was coming off an injury, but then don’t play and make it worse if you’re really hurting.

Jeff seems to have hinted at Frank's conditioning not being NBA level at the moment. Frank will have to fix that first and foremost(his stamina and body)

Yes, absolutely, and I think it was in the context of 2 different things: He is banged up a bit, and the possibility of increasing his minutes. Frank is reaching his limits, whether hitting the wall or just body/age. Got to do better.

2/11/2018 2:44 PM

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I have no clue if G-league would be more beneficial for Frank's development then playing in the NBA. I don't think any of us really know. I can understand the reasoning though in terms of using G-league as a platform for Frank to hold a high usage with the plan on working steadily on his weaknesses during live action games. Without worrying about effecting the wins and loses of the big club. But again don't know if its better for his development over the practices and mins he gets vs NBA comp under NBA head coach watch. As well as the access to veteran NBA players.

That's a resonance response.

The Knicks HAVE used the GLeauge for their roster. Baker, Dotson had gone down repeatedly. For home games when the team wasn't practicing. And when they couldn't get NBA minutes and/or were rehabbing.

So, send him down for just home games or for weeks or months at a time. Do players improve in just a couple sporadic games (especially in this particular instance; getting reps to keep the legs and shot going, yes)? Probably not, so to be effective, you'll need weeks or months of continual usage (something that is readily had during the summer). If you send him down for weeks of games, I'd guess that it would include time away from NBA team, ie practices, workout routines, time with the vets watching over, in-game NBA time. Does the GLeague team practices as much as their NBA counterparts? Doubt it but I don't know. Do they have access to trainers, physicians, assistants as much as their counterparts? Doubt it but I don't know. I'd guess some but not all of the GLeague guys have side jobs and what not, so time outside of games would be not as worthwhile as with the NBA.

Knicks - and plenty of other teams around the league that have rookies or second year players that have deficient games - have made a conscious decision to send some guys and to not send others. I don't think it's a case of "well, lets just send and see what happens". It's a very conscious, well thought out thing. Lots of positives, lots of negatives, lots of consideration.

I would be in favor of letting him play at the G-league, which was the *development* league. Frank has obviously hit the rookie wall. He's already played more minutes this year than he did last year. The argument for the having him play there is so he can develop as player. I think he'd benefit form playing heavy minutes there so his conditioning gets up to snuff. Also, I am a pretty but fan of all US team sports and I see the value of a minor league system. You seem to view it as punitive or people being dismissive of Frank's abilities. Bottom line is I think he could benefit from tearing that league up -- actually developing his shot -- where I could see his poor play at the pro level having a negative impact on his psyche. Frank needs to develop his shot. I sure as **** don't want him taking 15 or 20 shots per game for the Knicks

2/11/2018 2:55 PM

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I have no clue if G-league would be more beneficial for Frank's development then playing in the NBA. I don't think any of us really know. I can understand the reasoning though in terms of using G-league as a platform for Frank to hold a high usage with the plan on working steadily on his weaknesses during live action games. Without worrying about effecting the wins and loses of the big club. But again don't know if its better for his development over the practices and mins he gets vs NBA comp under NBA head coach watch. As well as the access to veteran NBA players.

That's a resonance response.

The Knicks HAVE used the GLeauge for their roster. Baker, Dotson had gone down repeatedly. For home games when the team wasn't practicing. And when they couldn't get NBA minutes and/or were rehabbing.

So, send him down for just home games or for weeks or months at a time. Do players improve in just a couple sporadic games (especially in this particular instance; getting reps to keep the legs and shot going, yes)? Probably not, so to be effective, you'll need weeks or months of continual usage (something that is readily had during the summer). If you send him down for weeks of games, I'd guess that it would include time away from NBA team, ie practices, workout routines, time with the vets watching over, in-game NBA time. Does the GLeague team practices as much as their NBA counterparts? Doubt it but I don't know. Do they have access to trainers, physicians, assistants as much as their counterparts? Doubt it but I don't know. I'd guess some but not all of the GLeague guys have side jobs and what not, so time outside of games would be not as worthwhile as with the NBA.

Knicks - and plenty of other teams around the league that have rookies or second year players that have deficient games - have made a conscious decision to send some guys and to not send others. I don't think it's a case of "well, lets just send and see what happens". It's a very conscious, well thought out thing. Lots of positives, lots of negatives, lots of consideration.

I would be in favor of letting him play at the G-league, which was the *development* league. Frank has obviously hit the rookie wall. He's already played more minutes this year than he did last year. The argument for the having him play there is so he can develop as player. I think he'd benefit form playing heavy minutes there so his conditioning gets up to snuff. Also, I am a pretty but fan of all US team sports and I see the value of a minor league system. You seem to view it as punitive or people being dismissive of Frank's abilities. Bottom line is I think he could benefit from tearing that league up -- actually developing his shot -- where I could see his poor play at the pro level having a negative impact on his psyche. Frank needs to develop his shot. I sure as **** don't want him taking 15 or 20 shots per game for the Knicks

So, fair enough.

Honest question: Why don't NBA teams use the development league like baseball? Got plenty of 19 years olds and draft picks who are playing but would be better off in the GLeague.

You seem to view it as punitive or people being dismissive of Frank's abilities.

All I have been asking is whether or not sending Frank to the GLeauge is the best decision or not, and what people know about the viability of sending Frank or anyone there.

Let me be on record: I am super for guys getting minutes in the GLeauge. Baker and Dotson should be there very regularly. Willy should have been there for months. Frank has been getting 20 minutes a game and up and to this point, I like him in the NBA.

2/11/2018 3:02 PM

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I have no clue if G-league would be more beneficial for Frank's development then playing in the NBA. I don't think any of us really know. I can understand the reasoning though in terms of using G-league as a platform for Frank to hold a high usage with the plan on working steadily on his weaknesses during live action games. Without worrying about effecting the wins and loses of the big club. But again don't know if its better for his development over the practices and mins he gets vs NBA comp under NBA head coach watch. As well as the access to veteran NBA players.

That's a resonance response.

The Knicks HAVE used the GLeauge for their roster. Baker, Dotson had gone down repeatedly. For home games when the team wasn't practicing. And when they couldn't get NBA minutes and/or were rehabbing.

So, send him down for just home games or for weeks or months at a time. Do players improve in just a couple sporadic games (especially in this particular instance; getting reps to keep the legs and shot going, yes)? Probably not, so to be effective, you'll need weeks or months of continual usage (something that is readily had during the summer). If you send him down for weeks of games, I'd guess that it would include time away from NBA team, ie practices, workout routines, time with the vets watching over, in-game NBA time. Does the GLeague team practices as much as their NBA counterparts? Doubt it but I don't know. Do they have access to trainers, physicians, assistants as much as their counterparts? Doubt it but I don't know. I'd guess some but not all of the GLeague guys have side jobs and what not, so time outside of games would be not as worthwhile as with the NBA.

Knicks - and plenty of other teams around the league that have rookies or second year players that have deficient games - have made a conscious decision to send some guys and to not send others. I don't think it's a case of "well, lets just send and see what happens". It's a very conscious, well thought out thing. Lots of positives, lots of negatives, lots of consideration.

I would be in favor of letting him play at the G-league, which was the *development* league. Frank has obviously hit the rookie wall. He's already played more minutes this year than he did last year. The argument for the having him play there is so he can develop as player. I think he'd benefit form playing heavy minutes there so his conditioning gets up to snuff. Also, I am a pretty but fan of all US team sports and I see the value of a minor league system. You seem to view it as punitive or people being dismissive of Frank's abilities. Bottom line is I think he could benefit from tearing that league up -- actually developing his shot -- where I could see his poor play at the pro level having a negative impact on his psyche. Frank needs to develop his shot. I sure as **** don't want him taking 15 or 20 shots per game for the Knicks

So, fair enough.

Honest question: Why don't NBA teams use the development league like baseball? Got plenty of 19 years olds and draft picks who are playing but would be better off in the GLeague.

You seem to view it as punitive or people being dismissive of Frank's abilities.

All I have been asking is whether or not sending Frank to the GLeauge is the best decision or not, and what people know about the viability of sending Frank or anyone there.

Let me be on record: I am super for guys getting minutes in the GLeauge. Baker and Dotson should be there very regularly. Willy should have been there for months. Frank has been getting 20 minutes a game and up and to this point, I like him in the NBA.

I agree -- he is an NBA player. As to your question, I have no idea why they don't use the g-league like it's the minors. I think it's insane. I think it's a lot of biased group think and irrational bias.

Let's take a team like the Knicks that benefit from having more resources available than other teams. Let's say that the Knicks become forward thinkers and become world-class educators... they get to the point where if you are a d-league player, you WANT to come to Westchester. Guys that go through our Westchester program become better ballers... wouldn't that be such a huge advantage for us? For whatever reason, the league definitely has a stigma attached to it.

So I don't know if it's possible for Frank to go down there, up his conditioning, and return with a legit jumper... but I certainly think it should be possible and I would love to see it